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106658-constuctive-argument-about-grit
Content ---- ---- Well it makes sense if you are looking for just crit rating to get just crit rating. If you want crit rating and crit sev, then moxie would be better for you. That balance is there and makes sense especially if you are close to a new moxie tier so overall stat wise you will come out with more. With grit you don't have that, its been well known for awhile. Not a game breaker or anything but would be nice. | |} ---- ---- ^this | |} ---- yeah....*likes* Like the only reason to ever really take grit is for a milestone and even then it's like "eh....." Crafting as an example I'll push for a milestone if I'm close, but base health just trumps it completely and I only ever use a grit rune if its a water slot and im trying to complete a set bonus... Think that is the only time I ever consider grit as a tank crafter. | |} ---- ---- Well. that was blunt and unexpected. I always assumed Grit was supposed to balance out a bit versus pure HP gain because Grit could power up through hitting the milestones. Huh. | |} ---- Grit plus milstone < Flat HP if both are maxed for a piece of gear. | |} ---- Nah even with those you get like....+150 health from a milestone. For every points of grit you get +14 health and using crafting as an example: I have been able to push grit to 100 which gives 1400 health, however for that same budget I can easily push basehealth to 2.2-6k depending how risky i wanna go. I remember when I was starting out crafting i did a lot of grit stats and then I decided to try switching it out for basehealth and i got twice or more health by using pure base health To use runes slots as an example: Usually I will get +400 health from a health rune in the primary slot, but for that same slots I will get a +16 Grit rune and that will only give me 224 health... Grit is just bad... | |} ---- Grit became bad when the stat system got an overhaul between Closed Beta and Winter Beta, when the old Milestone system got downgraded and those functions got moved into AMPs. Depending on your class, it used to do more, but because of imbalances in other stats and in some classes, that got dropped and/or moved. So now we end up with essentially a useless stat. But it looks like that will be changing, which is fine by me. | |} ---- as the item lead , how did grit being worse than base health, get passed both your desk and class leads desk.. not blaming you for *cupcake*ed up stats but you are on the ground floor and can see that t didn't add up right on the items you craft. | |} ---- ---- i would only want grit if it gave equal ehp as base hp, maybe a tiny bit less ehp because of milestones | |} ---- ---- ---- I agree with this statement | |} ---- That's not a good idea, because unless I'm mistaken, armor has diminishing returns. (Every point of armor offers less benefit than the last) That would cause Grit to scale poorly. We already have an even more extreme example in Strikethrough; once you hit the cap, the stat that offers Crit Sev and Strikethrough becomes the worst stat. The same would happen to Grit, only the point at which it becomes useless is less clear. A cappable (even soft-cappable) stat should never be conjoined with a non-cappable one, nor should the main stat ever be absent on an item. Finally, and I apologize for off-topic, power ratings should always scale in tandem with level, so that we don't end up with items that are better than 5 levels their "superior". | |} ---- You say that like he didn't notice and pass it along. Since it wasn't a major flaw in the stat system, I'm sure the reports got filed for when they were ready to make a serious pass on stats based on Live data. | |} ---- because that stat issue isn't on the same order of magnitude as the AP/sp issue. Grit and base health have the exact same effect across the board and it not like tuning up the value of grit( or more simply toning down base health) is magically a change that takes more than a few hours to pass through the dev cycles. additionally i ask, because this really stupid mistake managed to get passed them and any number of other deves that should have a passing interest in stat balance. | |} ---- It's a big game. Grit's value is more a character issue than an items issue. Honestly, the problem isn't grit, it's base health. Grit is too weak, sure. But base health SHOULD NOT EXIST on items or runes. I mean, AP has a reason to exist on gear. Classes have different main stats that grant AP. So say you wanted to make a light armor piece that was awesome for both Spellslingers and Espers, do you put high moxie on it? or do you put high finesse on it? Instead, you can put high AP on it and it's good for both. But Grit is HP for everyone. You want to give people HP, you can give them grit. Everyone gets HP from grit. Grit is more interesting than HP. It's more interesting because of the milestone system. If grit was not terrible then it would be more interesting because the milestones give little breakpoints. Grit is easier to work with on a balance level than HP. The designers have the ability to change the ratio of grit to HP, they're doing that soon for tank classes and their primary stat. If they want to raise people's HP, they can increase grit scaling from 14 to 17 per point. If they want to raise people's HP from +health items, then they will have to go and modify every single item in the game with +health. Because moving from 14 HP per grit to 17 HP per grit isn't that confusing, but moving to 100 HP for 100 HP to 140 HP for 100 HP is confusing. The purpose of flat HP is only useful if you want to give a flat base health when classes might get different scaling. IE: If some class has an ability that gives them 10% more grit, and you want to give a buff or item that raises everyone's HP by 10k, and don't want those classes to get 11k from it, you could use HP instead of grit. That way you could load any health pool scaling abilities on grit, and leave +HP for very special cases when you wanted to give a very specific amount of HP without worrying about those different scales. | |} ---- ... you realise im not talking about grit not being wanted dps/ healers. this is about grit being massively inferior to just getting base health ps there are 0 mechanics in game that increase grits relative value to base hp and the is no tangible reason for grit to be gimped compared to base hp | |} ---- ---- My guess is that it's got nothing to do with grit, but that base HP was buffed to deal with something else. Grit suffered by being a primary stat on the milestone system, and I'm going to go out on a limb and just flat out assume that grit was nerfed and base HP got a big boost when the milestone system got revamped. In the end, while it wasn't what was intended, it wasn't like people weren't getting HP, they were just getting it from a less interesting added stat than a base stat. On the list of things to fix, that wasn't high; HP is HP. It's only now that larger gameplay issues are getting fixed up that they're getting down to precisely how that gameplay is done, including stats. At launch, it hardly mattered where you were getting your attack power, crits, and health. All that mattered was if it was enough to clear content. | |} ---- OT: That's actually a scaringly good point. I always used to think that primary stats are more appealing, for whatever reason. Maybe it's baggage from WoW, where they made a conscious effort to make them feel more... primary. Consequently pretty much all items have their main power stat (str/int for plate, agi/int for mail, agi/int for leather, or just int for cloth) in addition to secondary stats and stamina (the hp-giving stat) with a linear level-based progression, which may be a bit boring, but doesn't lead to weird situations where lower level items can be better because they don't miss THE stat. And I'm not saying they were wrong in doing so. I think WildStar's attempt to innovate has backfired, and has lead to a situation where an item's usefulness depends more on class than anything else. If for example I, an Engineer, were to see 10 Brutality and 70 Finesse on the only heavy armor reward, I'd be pretty psyched, but I'm fairly sure that a Warrior would just feel shafted, even if they were wearing an item 15 levels lower. It was even worse as a Stalker; I'd keep seeing Brutality/Tech items en masse, and keep thinking to myself "The Medics must be ecstatic." At that point, it would have been a blessing to have a consolidated Assault Power stat on an item. Or, you know, just have both classes use the same Primary Stat for AP... | |} ---- ---- Well, that's a step towards more imaginative milestones, but could cause problems in pvp, because Grit would have a double impact on healer survivability. I think it's been kinda clear from day 1 that the game needs (a lot of) work. I think it's rather inspiring that they're acknowledging current problems and are are reworking it, because it very much feels like a system that is transitioning between iterations. Having | |} ---- That's an issue that can be fixed by saying healing TAKEN, as in given by a source other than yourself. | |} ---- ... Or one could argue that negligence and poor management allows these sorts of flaws to go live when there is no reason in the world they should. | |} ---- Or one could argue is only Human and community whine too much | |} ---- Yes, some things do slip and I commend them for acknowledging it. For example, their completely RNG-based gear system. They know it's a problem and they are working on it, they didn't expect it to be as bad as we are seeing it firsthand. But something like a stat being implemented that is far inferior than it's base stat. They programmed exactly how much health 1 point of grit would add, they programmed exactly how much base health would be acquired for each milestone, and they programmed how much base health would add in runes. Clearly they followed the exact same formula for all secondary and primary stats in regards to their runes and even my tiny brain can see it doesn't add up. The wrong way to implement this system is just what was done, apply the same formula to each primary and secondary rune. It was no secret when they were designing the rather simplistic stats into the game how much secondary stat a primary stat would add. Reading their QA sessions I am becoming more sympathetic to their cause, but then I wonder what beta was really for. Was it just "exclusive" PR? These things were tested many times by numerous people, so for most of these things to just slip by and to acknowledge that they are problems, they end up creating more artificial work for themselves. What I think it really boils down to is the timeline they set forth to NCSoft. It's too aggressive and too fast for a ground-up company with their first MMO. Im sure many players would be much happier if they would actually finish what they started instead of constantly pushing out new stuff. How long have we known the Elder Point/Gem system wasn't finished - March. They went live without completing an entire tradeskill for god sake. Sabotage could have been tested more thoroughly before throwing it on us, especially when it introduced so many new bugs. Sure I get that writing it into a live game introduces bug, but on the magnitude we are currently seeing? Ultimately they need to rework their timeline and make it more manageable because with how many things they are "working on", their new content is going to keep getting more and more unplayable. | |} ----